#100 - The Jeff's Story, Win/Loss with Ken Schwarz and Popular Content over a Cocktail Episode

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"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"

Ian Truscott  0:01  
It's my show I should know how it works all right. All right

Ian Truscott  0:18  
Hello and welcome to episode 100 of Rockstar cmo F. M is marketing and if you decide as you're probably wondering, does the world need effing Marketing podcast. I'm your host Ian Truscott. And this weekly podcast set is my excuse to chat with marketing friends older new that I've met through my career from techie to CMO, and hopefully share with you some marketing street noise that my guests and I have picked up along the way. Come say hello, we are Rockstar cmo on Twitter and LinkedIn, and a proud member of the Marketing Podcast Network. This episode is recorded on Friday, the fourth of February hope you had a good week, and you're well safe and staying as sane as you feel you need to be. This week to celebrate 100 I interview my regular collaborator Jeff Clark, I learned about important win loss analysis from expert Ken Schwartz. And we're better to celebrate 100 episodes than in the Rockstar cmo virtual part where Robert Rose is waiting for a cocktail and a thought for the week. But first, we need to pay the bar tap I'll be back in a moment.

Ian Truscott  1:45  
Right come to our first segment. If you're a regular listener, you'll be familiar with the wise words of Jeff Clark former reset Director at siriusdecisions Forrester and principal strategic advisory here at Rockstar cmo as we regularly chew the fat on various marketing topics, celebrate 100 I thought it was time we shared a bit more about where this wisdom has come from, Get the insider tips from his industry career, and through his time advising an amazing roster of clients and share with you a bit about the Jeff.

Ian Truscott  2:20  
Jeff, welcome back to Rockstar, cmo FM How are you my friend?

Jeff Clark  2:24  
I am doing very well. Thank you for having me back. Of

Ian Truscott  2:27  
course, of course we did promise that we were going to talk about some more stuff about marketing education. Yes. I I changed my mind. And because this is our 100th episode, I thought I'd do something different this week. Wow.

Jeff Clark  2:41  
Do we get up and do a Chinese fire drill around our studios? To celebrate? Wow,

Ian Truscott  2:48  
that sounds cool. Yeah, let's do that. I'll see if we can find the sound effects. But what I feel I do is, you know, we've heard a lot of great advice and insight from you, Jeff, and snippets of your experience and where you've worked before. But I thought maybe as it's our 100th episode, we might share a little bit about you. So flattered. So I thought I'd interview you. So I regularly mentioned that you are a former research director at Forrester siriusdecisions. But should we kick off with where your marketing career started? What inspired you to get going?

Jeff Clark  3:25  
Sure. You know, by the way, can I interview you on your career next week? Or turn the tables?

Ian Truscott  3:35  
Absolutely, there'll be a conversation because you've done better things.

Jeff Clark  3:45  
Longer to Well,

Ian Truscott  3:47  
I mean, my mind would be just as long in terms of years, it's just not as exciting. Let's make that very clear.

Jeff Clark  3:53  
So anyway, so yeah, so So Where the heck did I start? So, um, you know, I mean, this may seem like a non sequitur. But yeah, coming out of college, I was very into the beginning of the renewable energy and solar wave that was happening around the energy crisis. So that is way back in the late 70s, early 80s. And I snagged the job at the New Hampshire's governor, Governor's Energy Office, you know, public sector in 1980. And, you know, I take in marketing and taking communications I was basically an economics major in school, you know, so I had some of the tidbits but I never really said down below, I'm gonna do a career in marketing. And after four years government, I ran a nonprofit, very small nonprofit for a very short period of time. Then I got a job for a really small seven person software company that was doing. They were doing energy analysis they did for like utilities and heating, air conditioning. So it was it sort of fit into What I was doing prior, but it was a software company, very marginal one at best. And I was like, the sales guy. And then I started doing some marketing work out of necessity, I had to put a catalogue together. I did you know, sir, my partner Co Op programmes I did training for people, HVAC companies, I did credit collateral photoshoots, you know, of our products and stuff like that. And then, and I realised that it's like, you know, the stuff I was doing for profit, profit already company was the same stuff I had been doing, you know, for the government. Yep. Because I was not in a job that was all about, you know, laws or regulations. It was more about advocacy promoting, yeah. Solar energy. So. So anyway, just I really ended the sales side of the job. I just didn't I personally was not, was not very satisfying to me. It just didn't I just have the, the the same drive that the coin operated folks are the people that are you know, that? Well, I mean, it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a highly skilled job that just has different motivations. And you can we could talk about sales versus marketing all day. But, but anyway, you know, then I was getting married, it's like, okay, now I got to get a job with a company that can actually pay my travel expenses. So I landed myself in Boston with a small startup wordprocessing company, and, and, you know, was five jumped from software company software company until I landed it. forester serious decisions.

Ian Truscott  6:39  
Yeah. Well, you skipped out big chunks. Yeah, that was that, bro. I

Jeff Clark  6:45  
didn't know. I didn't know you want to take you all the way. Is that way, like, it's that kind of time. Yeah,

Ian Truscott  6:52  
I'm going to do is because you spent most of your career in b2b marketing. So I was gonna sort of focus a little bit on that chunk that you just get past you were worked with Kronos progress. pega systems and STL. Yeah. And what is it? I mean, because you've always been in beta, but haven't you? So what are the key things you think that did you learn during that period that you think Mark b2b marketers need to focus on?

Jeff Clark  7:15  
Well, you know, one thing actually, one thing that could have occurred to me, which just popped into my head is that it's like my first. So after the small word processing company, I went to Kronos and I went to Kota says it just hit IPO. And today, it's a multi billion dollar HR and blah, blah, blah, companies, actually, they just changed the name recently. And it's like, Ah, she's, if I stayed there, probably would have made more options and stuff than some of the other places I go, Oh, man, every, every place I went, you know, was was reasonably successful. So I can't really complain. But yeah, to answer your question, which is kind of what the key things that b2b marketers need to focus on is, I just, I really think it comes down to understanding the customer and knowing how to communicate them, to them, if the goal is obviously to, you know, have, you know, your products or services match their needs. You know, it sounds simple, but it is just, it's it, I think it's one of the things that a lot of marketing teams or individuals don't really focus enough on and everything we do around, you know, marketing, technology, data, strategy, advertising, digital, those are all, I mean, they're all tactics, tactics, and methods and tools to help us do that thing, which is, connect with the, the customer, the prospect and connect with them at the right spot, and with the right message, the right channel. And, you know, which is when we were at SEL, I mean, that was the whole thing, you know, bring bring all these tools together, so you can deliver that, that right message at the right time and all that and, and it you know, it's it. I mean, there's, from a technology perspective, that's still a bit of a holy grail. But, you know, just there's nothing that that. I mean, it's all comes back to understanding that customer, and there's just, there's so many ways to get to that, that. That's one of the things that the CMO is no marketing leadership, as well as the individuals are in the marketing team are just, you know, that should be their number one priority. Get that fixed first. Yeah, well,

Ian Truscott  9:29  
fixed understanding the customer. Yep. Yes. Yeah. I think too few of us don't leave the office. Do we need to actually meet the customer and understand? Yeah, and what they do? Yeah. Yeah. Because,

Jeff Clark  9:41  
um, and I, one of the things I was thinking about this this morning, was that that, you know, in my career, I just, I guess I had an, the opportunity to meet customers and partners, as well as be involved in you know, the sort of the typical things You know, doing focus groups, you know, but you know, when you go out and trade shows or you go on I did when I was at progress, I did a lot of product Advisory Council tours, you know, so we're being the tech guy would go out. And we would talk to custom big customers and partners and, and it's just like there's nothing, nothing that replaces that, because in addition to whatever research you can do, so it's like the first and third party research is absolutely necessary. But there's always something missing, if you haven't actually had the conversation, because then you start to put in just the way human beings work. It's just like, to put everything in context.

Ian Truscott  10:40  
Absolutely. Absolutely. So that was your first, that's your first key thing that as b2b marketers need to focus on from that part of your career. What else did you press?

Jeff Clark  10:51  
Well, I think that, you know, one of the things that, that, you know, and this, this may roll into a little bit about what what I think your next question might be, but is that, you know, having this alignment on a strategy is just incredibly important. And I, I, one time, I went to a user conference for one of our partners, when I was at progress, and the CEO of actually say, former CEO of Porsche was there. And he was an American engineer who went over to, to run the German car company, and, and he just had this thing that just stuck in my head ever since, which is, you know, a good plan well executed is better, and I should emphasise a good plan. Well, it's better than the perfect plan, poorly executed. Yeah. And, and so I think both my experience being in, you know, working inside marketing teams, as well as being an advisor to them is I just really see companies struggling with the getting everybody on the same page. I mean, whether it's the marketing teams on the same page with the rest of the other, you know, yeah, customer facing functions, or whether it's, everyone marketing team is on the same page, because, you know, I mean, unfortunately, some of my worst experiences is when somebody, you know, who had some, you know, sort of some power within the marketing team would just be totally like, you know, this, this, yeah, this quarter, this, what the CMO says, stinks. Yeah, he doesn't know any all he's doing the President does. You know, I know where it is. And, and we used to call those, I don't know if I called that in the show before, but But the President used to call those terrorists because they were the ones that were like, you know, we're just trying to get together on the same strategy. And somebody goes off and says, You're all wet and goes off with their own opinion, and so on. And this is where it's so important to go back to understanding the customer. Because, you know, if, if everyone has sort of been infused with this understanding of who they are, what their needs are, how they talk, then then that kind of drives everything as opposed to people's opinions.

Ian Truscott  13:06  
Hmm, yeah. And I was also interested in asking you about your time series decisions, because that must have been absolutely fascinating, because you're there as an advisor, and you're there diagnosing various challenges that you see with these big b2b companies that you're working for. Can I like ask you to share a few of the little secrets of what you picked up? Well, sort of challenges or problems. I mean, without naming names, did you see that were, you know, with with the common things you saw as you talk to all these different companies?

Jeff Clark  13:40  
Yeah. Well, certainly a, a common thing leads back to what I was, was just talking about is that you see, like, like, I did a lot of advisory on on planning. Yeah, I kind of like the the sort of the annual that what are the mechanics of doing an annual marketing plan? You know, what's it look like? How does what's the process go? Whether it's, whether it's sort of the whole marketing plan, the campaign plan, or even, you know, I get a lot of work on technology, marketing technology, so what's the what's the technology roadmap look like? And it's just, you know, you could see people struggling with the fact that, you know, you've got the debates between business units, and product divisions, you know, you know, marketing versus sales, and, and there was one company we did with, which will name any names, but it's like, they, you know, we were kind of struggling with them, because they were, they were disassembling their marketing part department. But one of the, one of the interesting things that came out of that, and again, this is really mostly from a technology perspective, is that they, they pulled the operations teams together, sales and marketing operations teams. And and it's like they finally you know, a lot of the because we did a technology assessment for them and a lot of the technology issues they had, they were able to solve, because it's like, they weren't coming at it from two different perspectives that are that are gonna, you know, that are gonna, like meet and have a battle to see you, you know, what, where are we going to put our data, how we're going to track, you know, our engagement, etc, etc. And and so they came up with a more unified approach. And and and so I think that's yeah, I mean, that's just so typical. And the and the other area that is somewhat along the same lines, but you know, people would be trying to execute, you know, successful campaigns and of course, but we, the way we defined it, you know, a lot of this was just kind of the terminology is that the campaign was the aggregate of all of the tactical efforts focused on a particular customer set with a particular business need. And, and so, you know, if you had a different customer set with a different need, or same customer set with a different need, then that's a different, you know, campaign. And, and the problem. I mean, it's a, it's, it's absolutely the right way to go. And certainly in my career, it's like, I could look back, and I could say, ah, the reason why we were successful here was because we were able to do that. But that requires, it's like, the campaign plan requires people being settled on the marketing plan, which requires people being settled company strategy, where sales and marketing are, you know, they're defining customer segments the same way. They're defining, you know, what they're trying to sell to those segments the same way what the needs are. And, you know, again, we would see lots of successes I help companies get from, you know, sort of the bad place to the good place, but boy, like you run into another company, you're like, that's struggling with this, you're just like, oh, my gosh, they don't, they can't see the kids see their way through this. And so often, it's been, you know, both you and I worked a lot of companies that were built by acquisition or at a core company that acquired other companies, and that that usually was one of the Yes, verses from problems because people with an older vision or a different vision, still exists. Couldn't get the line.

Ian Truscott  17:19  
Right, I'm going to pause it there. I'm sorry. On that great point, I was enjoying that we get we were going very long. So after recording, we agreed to split this over two episodes. So we'll pick that conversation up next week. And I promise there is some really good advice to come that I found really useful. And I encourage you to join us again next week for the rest of that conversation. Now normally, at this point, Jeff nominates a tune which he did, and we recorded the full interview and I'll play that tune next week. So I'll pick one for this week and I realised neither of us have a ghetto story by loveless tune from 2010 Baby Cham to get his story

Unknown Speaker  17:51  
this survival story true get a story. This is my story. Real get the story. Hey, I remember those days when when me and my mom was a big piece of paper like based on my years when my mother knows me. I remember when I came up Jerome I remember when we visit them with pure stone and the chicken I remember somebody told me no.

Ian Truscott  18:40  
So there we go. A little snippet of true ghetto story by baby champ by the way, you can find a link to the tunes we choose along with all of Jeff's links in the show notes which you can find at Rockstar cmo.fm right onto my guest Ken Schwartz is the Managing Principal at PSP enterprises, and is an enterprise software professional with a 30 year career spanning roles in engineering sales and marketing in software infrastructure companies with a speciality in competitive intelligence. Can holds a bachelor's degree in East Asian Studies from Harvard College and lived and worked in Japan for seven years. Probably the show is by a guest it's providing me with so far, but that does not reflect what a fascinating b2b ad

Ian Truscott  19:32  
welcome 10 to Rockstar CMOS em, how are you?

Ken Schwartz  19:35  
Very good. Thank you. And thank you very much for having me. Oh, you're

Ian Truscott  19:38  
very welcome. And we just recently met through through our mutual friend Jeff, who's also on the show. But for those of you that for our listeners who don't know, Jeff, tell us a bit about yourself, Ken?

Ken Schwartz  19:50  
Sure. Well, you know, I've known Jeff for many years. I have a background in product marketing in the enterprise software space. restructure software like middleware and databases and storage and so on. And yet, Jeff and I work together and progress software and also pick a systems for several years.

Ian Truscott  20:09  
Nice. Nice. And you're now we've PSB enterprises. Tell us a bit about what you guys do.

Ken Schwartz  20:14  
That's right. Yeah, so I'm the Managing Principal and owner of PSP enterprises, we are a specialist consultancy, focusing on competitive win loss research. And what we do is we help our clients find out how and why their customers make their competitive decisions, and what our clients can do to improve their win rate.

Ian Truscott  20:34  
Yeah, I love it. And we chat the other day. I mean, win loss analysis is a fascinating topic for me as a b2b marketer. But if we rewind a little bit, when, as I sort of got introduced to you and and was looking at your LinkedIn profile, you've had quite the marketing career. Tell us a little bit about your journey. And what inspired Ken to get into marketing.

Ken Schwartz  20:53  
My chequered career, yeah, well, I have a background that started in, in East Asian studies of all things, I studied Japanese and and wanted to live and work in Japan, which I did. But I also had a technical background. And so I started an engineering career track. And to tell you the truth, I had a puzzle on my mind. And the puzzle was, why is it that some companies grow like gangbusters, and take over and others just seem to fizzle out? And, you know, because knowing the answer to this, of course, you can become very rich, you are one of those companies, or at least you can work for the right company, and not the wrong company. And and it was such a puzzle, you know, what should technology? Is it the leadership? Is it the culture is it you know, United States or Japanese culture seem to have different kinds of companies. So, I found this endlessly fascinating, and I didn't know it at the time. But what I came to understand is that it's really competitive strategy that explains it. And that has always fascinated me. And so, you know, my guru is are people like Clayton Christensen, and Michael Porter, you know, innovators dilemma and competitive strategy, those books. And, and I've discovered them over the course of my career, and they're really eye opening. So I ended up moving from a general product marketing kind of background, towards more of a competitive role in the companies I worked for, and then ended up specialising it. And, yeah, so that's my background. And during the those years doing that work, I used PSP, my, my company, as an client. So PSP did competitive research for me while I was at those companies, and, yeah, so two years ago, the founder of PSP, Richard case, approached me and asked if I wouldn't be as partner with the interest to to buy his company because he was looking to retire in the coming years. And that's exactly what I did. So I guess I'm like the guy who liked the razor so much, he bought the company.

Ian Truscott  23:01  
I love that. I love that. And a great marketing is talking about advertising. And also, I mean, you've also Clayton Christensen, I mean, we've been talking about inspiration, and what inspired people to get into marketing and books and stuff. And Clayton Christensen. I mean, I know that Robert Roberts, who's on the show, big fan of his work, too. I think he recently passed away in the last

Ken Schwartz  23:24  
year, he did so sad. Yeah. And yeah, he had quite a health debacle over many years. But amazing person. And if you know, to your listeners, if they haven't read his books, innovators dilemma and solution, they really must. It's just fantastic.

Ian Truscott  23:43  
Yeah, and I'm recommend that tooth and anything written by him, um, but let's get back to win loss analysis. Why is win loss analysis? So important? I mean, predominantly, I guess we're talking about fee to be hit on?

Ken Schwartz  23:56  
Yeah, yeah. So that, you know, you can do win loss analysis in other areas, but we focused on b2b and, and really, deals which are big enough that they're handled by direct sales force. So they're, they're pretty involved. And, you know, knowing why you're winning and losing, I think, things that people want to know. But there's really two big reasons I think that clients value it. And I guess it's the head and the heart. So one reason that appeals to the head to the finance types is the win rate. You know, if you win more deals, your win rate goes up and your potential for more incremental bookings goes up. And every company wants to have that, you know, lost deals are very expensive, and these competitive deals that can go on for months or even years to lose them at the end is heartbreaking. But you know, somebody is going to lose them. And if you have a couple companies competing more going to lose them win. So that's a big one. And then, you know, if it's important to the heart, it's to the head. It's also important to the heart because you know, coming Companies are just not driven by the numbers. It's, there's a culture to a company that is, you know, the benefits. If everybody's rowing together, you know what I mean? If, if you're rowing on a river, and you have a bunch of guys rowing crew and, and they're really synched up, the boat just cooks. But if you don't, it's very choppy. And we've all worked for companies that were more or less, well, well coordinated and organised. And I think one of the big benefits of wind loss, though is that it gives you this outside in perspective, that can be very unifying for the leadership to be able to bring in a single voice of the marketplace that's very reliable, and isn't subject to all of the the usual, internal, you know, politics and bickering that can go on, without having that kind of clear lodestar for to guide the company. So it's very, very powerful for for putting together a culture that's driven by the competitive market, and gets everybody working together.

Ian Truscott  26:17  
Yeah, and your point, you hit on two key things, or three key things that really there, one of them is the emotion of b2b sales, right, is that you're cutting through that, because you're finding the data. I mean, I love your analogy there of head and heart rate is that, you know, quite often, there's quite a lot of emotion around losing a deal, and sometimes emotion around winning a deal. But those two emotions are very different, aren't they? And this, and this idea of alignment behind why things are happening in your marketplace. And so the so the insights, you're saying they're the insights just limited to how you go about selling, or is there more that we can gather as marketers or as product development teams from? Yeah, yeah.

Ken Schwartz  27:01  
Well, you know, it's, it's a whole body sport, I think. Um, so you got to have all the parts of the company engaged. But the big, I think the big message here is that it is that outside in perspective, yeah, and find out what customers are thinking. And, you know, customers form their opinions from a variety of sources, they, they, of course, deal with your salespeople, but they're reading the marketing materials. They're reading stuff that are written by other companies, marketers, by third party analysts, they're getting their hands on the product, they're evaluating things. So they're forming their decisions based on all of these inputs. And, you know, the, the findings from win loss can and should be leveraged by the entire company. And some things are going to take longer than others to change, the product can take months or years to significantly change. But things like sales, messaging and the handling of objections, and the positioning of a competitor's capability or, or message can be taken on very quickly. So getting a quick feedback from the marketplace through win loss can give you what you need to know for a kind of a one two punch. First, you can teach the salespeople how to deal with the problem in the short term. And second, you can give the the product people the insight they need in order to leapfrog the competition or at least to mitigate the problem. And that outside

Ian Truscott  28:37  
in view is so important or mess with everything that we do in b2b because we do get a bit wrapped around the axle, don't we on on our opinions of the market and what we think the competitors are doing? And how many times I've I've been in a room where the most senior person from sales or even the CEO has this perception of why we're winning and losing based on you know, their own feelings, their gut feel, right. Sure. So that's what it's this priceless marketing data. Isn't it win loss? Yeah. So it's so I mean, I was gonna actually, you know, when you do win loss analysis, can you can you just go and ask the sales guys?

Ken Schwartz  29:19  
No. Unless the sales guy happens to have just read the win loss analysis I did, then he won't know what you need to know, in order to be able to get that perspective. You know, they, of course, everybody has their, their hands on the elephant, but which part? Are they touching? Yeah, the salespersons experience is going to be limited to whatever deal they worked on. And just as you you know, you pointed out, people are going to be most vocal about whatever it is that just happened to them. That and that's to be expected. So to have a balanced view that looks at the experiences of All the salespeople and not just one or two, and can, you know, find a way to sow together all of those inputs in a way that gives you an accurate read. So you know, what really matters to customers? And how those customers are sizing up their options in the marketplace today, that that kind of readout can't be taken from a sales rep alone, you need to gather it. First of all, from many deals. And second of all, it needs to come from the customers themselves and not from the sales rep.

Ian Truscott  30:36  
Yeah, and I've been in a situation where years ago, and when I was in pre sales, where I suspected the customers trying to be kind, or at least they were trying to give the sales guy an objection they couldn't handle so they could go, you know, so they would just go away, you know, you don't, we've gone through this whole selection process with you, and we've got to this point, we've decided we're not going to select you because you don't support particular database type. And it's like, well, you knew that from the beginning. I don't think that's really the issue is it, you're just saying that because you know, we can't handle it. So I think that that Intel point from the sales people can be not that full Kenick sometimes it's the customer that's telling the sales guy something just to kind of move it along? Well, that, you

Ken Schwartz  31:20  
know, that reminds me of a very interesting study that my business partner Richard case did many years ago when PSP was was very, very young company. And they did a study with one very large client, where they compared the results of the information gathered from customers 50 deals. And they compare that with what they found when they asked the reps, why they won or lost. And what they found was that, in general, the losing reps didn't have any idea why they lost, which I guess, kind of stands to reason because they didn't have the the control or the insight that they needed to win. The winning reps actually were much better, they had a much better understanding about why they won. But even though they, they had a better understanding, they tended to overestimate the capabilities of the competition, the petition was stronger than it really was, as far as the customers were concerned. So they, they, you know, they weren't an accurate way to find out what's going on. And I think, yeah, you put your finger on a couple problems. One is that it's very hard to tell a person to his face. Face, what's wrong with them? When you're breaking up, right? I mean, yeah, yeah, so that's bad. And then the, the other thing is, is that even when you win, there are certain things that customers are not going to want to talk about with vendors, as straight as they might with me, because they don't want to show their hands. For example, pricing is something where if I'm a customer, I don't necessarily want to tell my vendor whether I thought I, you know, I got a good price or not, I've always met the vendor to think that they got the best of me. So that way, I'm in a stronger position the next round, I think that's just, you know, common sense. So there are many things which you can't find out on your own nearly as well as you can find out if you've got an independent consultant doing it for you, especially if the independent consultant does the interviews blind and anonymous. So that way, the the respondent doesn't actually know who I'm working for, so they can't couch their answers, just knowing that they're going to, you know, make their way back to their, their vendor, or one of the competitors they just working for.

Ian Truscott  33:53  
Yeah, and I love that I have a couple of things I'm pulling out again, from from what you were saying a couple things there. One, one of them was, there's probably a correlation between successful sales guy that wins, where there's a good understanding between him and the customer, right? Because I'm all good sales guys, you know, that's that their second favourite answer is no, isn't it? So they can just move on. So they, they like to get quickly to either a yes or no, but quickly? No, it's fine. So I wonder if there's a correlation there from your study that actually the sales guys that were in touch with the customers and therefore understood why they just understood the customer better in general. So that's interest. Yeah,

Ken Schwartz  34:31  
yeah. No, I, I think there's there's a lot to that. You know, one thing that we find in these studies is that the customers really do appreciate a consultative style of selling. So the reps who do a better job of really understanding what the customer's needs are, and fully understand that context before they start pitching. really do have a better time. And one of the one of the benefits of doing win loss is just showing people how this works. And when we give the the clients, these verbatim transcripts that show the conversation between me and the customer, and the customer talking about this and comparing their good sales experience with their not so good sales experience. It's pretty black and white. And if you ever needed some customer quotes to prove to the salespeople what really works, a win loss is fantastic. So part of it is the analysis that tells you that yes, these are the things that you need to fix, or these are the weaknesses that you need to attack from the competitor. But I think also the ability for me to show my clients and for them to then show their their, you know, internal constituents, customer quotes that really bring it to life. Very, very powerful change agents for getting people to add features where they otherwise wouldn't.

Ian Truscott  36:05  
Yeah. And when, when you were talking just now about the importance of it being done by a third party, in my experience. I mean, win loss, I think is is done a lot better with party because people open up and I was gonna ask you about that anyway. But I also think, but I, in my experience, case studies are better when they're done by third party, it just the conversation is just, it's just way different. Is it than if you asked one of your customers, why do you like me? Whereas if an impartial third party does a case study? Yeah, I can extract some really interesting insights, that why can't you?

Ken Schwartz  36:41  
That's certainly true. Um, you know, what, I think that the part of it also is that you when you have a third party, do it, it gets done. Studies and things like that. Are they're all writing thank you notes to me, you know, you should do it. But people don't. That is something comes up. And it seems more urgent, more important. And so I'm a believer in outsourcing things that are are important, but can easily get knocked off by some from above.

Ian Truscott  37:18  
That's that. I mean, it's kind of drifted a just a bit off topic, but talking about case studies, but I find that is so true about case studies, because and then somebody who's dedicated to getting the case study is going to work hard to do that, because it's hard to do, you know, it's hard to look, the customers and the customers process as well as your process. And none of us have got the time for that. So I completely agree with that. So So what's your approach? So you so you're, we're I think we're both in agreement here that this sort of thing is best done by third party? So how do you tend to approach a case study with somebody? So, I mean, I was going to ask, you know, what is it the marketing team can do? And it sounds like what marketing team can do is get some budget and hire a third party. Right? Yeah. Let's know, what's the approach, you know, so

Ken Schwartz  38:06  
So I don't want to stop people from talking to their customers and talking to respective customers. Obviously, that's really important. But you, you know, I don't think that most companies are going to be set up to do it as thoroughly and consistently, as you would if you were to hire a third party. That's just a fact of life. And that the the other thing is that we talked about is, you know, the, the perspective that an independent person can bring in by doing blinded, anonymous interviews, I think is very valuable. You can't do that yourself inside a company unless you lie to your customer about who you are, which is unethical. So you know, you mustn't do that. You have to tell them who you're working for. And then then that can colour the research. So yeah, for an unbiased readout, you want to use somebody. And so I think those are the, you know, the, the key things, but if you if you want to, you know, gather information from your sales team, about what's working and not working, you should definitely do that. Just don't ask the salespeople why they won or lost, because what you're effectively doing is asking them to be mind reader's? And they don't know. So questions they can answer asked, and this is very common in CRM systems. What's the primary reason you lost? What's the secondary reason you lost? Yeah, I mean, what is primary? I mean, I don't even know. So the same thing is true with primary competitor and secondary competitor, these questions or nonsense. They're much, much better questions that you can and should ask your sales people around how things are going throughout the sales cycle. So that way, you can find the hotspots and you can solve those problems in the field and take away the issues that are blocking them. That those are the kinds of things I think you should be focused on with your sales team and talking to customers and exploring issues with them in an open ended way I think is incredibly important, but doing it systematically finding out why you weren't in last is probably best done by an independent agency.

Ian Truscott  40:07  
Yeah. And just for the record, I wasn't meaning to ding the sales guys that the information is no good. Often they are incredible domain X. Oh my god. Yeah. Plus, yeah, as a marketer, they're going to tell you what's the most frequently asked questions they get, you know, how can you support them from a content perspective? What What questions do we need to answer in our on our website and our content that they don't get asked the question so that we can be more upstream? So absolutely. I mean, sales guys are great.

Ken Schwartz  40:33  
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, those are those are great questions to ask. Just don't ask the question. Why did you lose? That's really when this question, but it's it's so commonly asked. And unfortunately, what happens is, the salespeople know, not keen to look, you know, look bad, they'll just make or they'll choose the first thing in the list. pulldown menu. It's the first one. So you can tell if you do a little analysis if if it's amazing how frequently, salespeople choose the first item in the list and

Ian Truscott  41:11  
well, that's fabulous. Thank you very much, Ken, there's a nice summary of win loss analysis is important. And I don't think we were too hard on the sales guy. So I think that's good. So finally, to my final question, we have a regular feature in Rockstar cmo called the Rockstar CMA swim pool in tribute to all the rockstars that threw things in hotels, swim pools back in the day, but it's output. So marketing, healthily, overdrive hyped trends, Bs and snake oil from this practice, we love. What would you like to see chucked into our pool?

Ken Schwartz  41:39  
Oh, wow. Well, I'd say competitive intelligence automation. Is my, my big beef. Yeah, so I'm, you know, I'm all for Competitive Intelligence automation, for competitive analysts who can use these tools to good benefit, you know, to scour the internet and find all these, these, you know, these signals that things are going on, so that way they can try to put together a bigger picture. But these things that end up feeding into portals that are intended for salespeople, or for executives, for automated readout of what's going on in the competitive marketplace, I think are very ill advised. My view, salespeople want to know one thing, which is how do I beat the competition? And executives want to know, what's a good investment decision. And data, which supports these things should be disclosed judiciously in support of whatever perspective you want to bring. But you don't want to pump data, no matter how it's been filtered to these audiences. And that's what I feel that these tools are doing. And it's just going to generate a new round of disappointment. I feel things Oh,

Ian Truscott  42:58  
yeah, that's so true. Because, um, you know, data is there to help us make decisions. And those recommendations need to be curated, don't they? If you just exposing the raw data, you can just interpret wherever you like,

Ken Schwartz  43:11  
yeah, curation is a great word. It takes real human judgement and intelligence and experience to sort through these things. And I'm, I'm always concerned about a process that bypasses that.

Ian Truscott  43:24  
Yeah, love it. And it's a common theme actually in the in the pool in that, you know, we marked as or outsourcing our brains to the to the machines, so it's very consistent. So what I hear okay, well, that was, that was fantastic. Thank you very much, Ken. I love that soldier win loss analysis, and I look back at my career and realise I haven't done enough of it. I've seen it. I've done I've done it, I've done it often. And it's it's such an insight and like you say it's something just is something that just, you just don't get time for and you drift away and it doesn't happen and you think we really ought to do that. And I think people should, and they should want to talk to you about it. So when they do Ken and they spin the dial on the interwebs where they're gonna find you.

Ken Schwartz  44:04  
Oh, okay, yeah, PSP enterprises. PSP stands for pure survey professionals. So PSP enterprises, you can search for us on the web, and give us a buzz. We'd love to, to speak with you and see how we can help.

Ian Truscott  44:19  
Excellent and I'll include a link to PSP enterprises and to yourself on LinkedIn. Ken, in the show notes, and I look forward to speaking to you again soon. Have a great day.

Ken Schwartz  44:28  
Thanks so much. Take care.

Ian Truscott  44:40  
Thank you, Ken. If you're a b2b marketer, a nice reminder to give a win loss analysis and attention. And I will of course include all of Ken's links in the show notes which you can find at Rockstar cmo.fm. And if you'd like some help, please get in touch. Right? Tom celebrate 100 episodes and were better than the Rockstar cmo virtual bar and join my friends Then content marketing guru and chief troublemaker the content advisory Robert Rose to be transported away with a cocktail and a marketing

Ian Truscott  45:22  
Good evening Oh, that's what are you drinking?

Robert Rose  45:24  
Oh, hello my friend and and happy 100th show here. I mean, holy moly. bar hopping here. I mean, there's so much going on. You know, I think there's is that a? It seems to be some sort of 80s pop band over there in the corner playing some sort of music. I'm not sure what that is. It's synth, some sort of synth driven pop 80s Thing.

Ian Truscott  45:55  
Thing We play a lot here, especially when Jeff cart makes a recommendation. So yes, that's right.

Robert Rose  46:01  
Yeah, and there seems to be someone really talking quite loudly over there in the corner. I think he's giving a political speech he sounds German

Robert Rose  46:26  
that's no mariachi band. No, no appreciable. You've already got that downloaded. So it said, Yeah. Find things that you have to go out and find that

Ian Truscott  46:37  
this show, as the show got a full floor left, or whatever it is that you performers call the thing between us and the listener?

Robert Rose  46:46  
Yeah, this is the fourth wall. We're breaking the fourth.

Ian Truscott  46:50  
That's what I that's classy, isn't it? One must do that as as a one must

Robert Rose  46:56  
do that, especially on your 100th episode. So seriously, congratulations on this. This is quite an achievement.

Ian Truscott  47:02  
Thank you very much. It's been Yes. 100 consecutive weeks as well, which I'm quite proud of. But yes, the lockdown project. And when we do that, yeah. And we're still talking about COVID 100 weeks later, which I'm very surprised by so

Robert Rose  47:17  
yeah, yeah. I mean, it's amazing. It's, it's, it's utterly amazing. And well, and to celebrate I have a very special cocktail for you. I haven't yet have an incredible cocktail. I'm calling it a gin and tonic. I'm hoping you might have the ingredients for this because it has a very special sort of, you know, very, you know, it takes a very special gin and a very special tonic to make this it does not have olives in it in this case, but our cocktail for the evening. Yeah

Ian Truscott  47:59  
well, I mean, I've got my 2022 bar with me desktop, but let's see if I can make a gin and tonic. Yeah. So um, how about what ingredients are you using there are but

Robert Rose  48:13  
I'm using their two primary ingredient. Gin is the first one. Yes. And the second one is a tonic water if you if you have such right.

Ian Truscott  48:25  
Okay, let me see what I've got. So again, I have three ingredients. And did you put ice in that?

Robert Rose  48:34  
I did put a gin and tonic. Yes.

Ian Truscott  48:37  
Jolly good. I'm just putting some I'm putting some ice into a shaker thing. And the bit did ah, hang on a minute. I might have that I might have the very thing. Did you put Hendrix Luna gin in three or

Robert Rose  48:54  
did you did put Hendrick's gin and that is just amazing.

Ian Truscott  48:57  
You do like a Hendrix and I forgot to make the big cork and just pouring the gin into little measurement thing because I'm measuring now you know, very big

Robert Rose  49:07  
correlate, you have to stay that very slowly. I did. But

Ian Truscott  49:12  
I'm just I'm actually using a little measuring jack that came in my cocktail set here. Right so put the gin in. Unfortunately, you'd be surprised to learn and probably very surprised to learn that I have entrusted my tonic making to a company called martini and they seem to have produced from those ingredients. Some of the mousse I need to make I'm still using that my Christmas for mousse. Let me just kill Splash. Splash a tonic in order to probably put a lot more tonic in than I just put in the news. And yeah, you know, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm gonna up doing the same as I did last week and going from the olives too soon. I'm gonna get that stuff that gets really cold

Ian Truscott  50:07  
right? And then I'm gonna string Matt. Now this comes across, under strain in that into my cocktail glass. Okay. And, I guess add on if you didn't put an olive in yours that you made a very good point that did not. It doesn't I don't think, do you ever put cucumber in your gin and tonic? I quite like quite like a cucumber. Imagine

Robert Rose  50:38  
a cucumber. It's lovely in a gin and tonic. Yes. Especially in the spring I find. Yeah,

Ian Truscott  50:43  
especially for Hendrix. Actually. I just realised my my entropy. My whole life is stuffed with entropy. I don't know if that makes it particularly mucky. Gin and Tonic. Let me try this. Oh, but I'm really getting the gin. And what are you calling that?

Robert Rose  51:08  
I'm calling that a gin and tonic.

Ian Truscott  51:11  
Wow, that's delicious. I could drink one of these every week.

Robert Rose  51:15  
I suspect you could

Ian Truscott  51:19  
get back to gin and tonics. Yes, this is

Robert Rose  51:21  
100 episodes in it would it would seem that it would be appropriate.

Ian Truscott  51:25  
Yes. Well, I did about 87 having having gin and tonics I've done for teamies. Yes. And yes, I should have stuck with the original Jack. What Tim? So we're gonna have these lovely gin and tonics. And on my 100th episode, where shall we be celebrating?

Robert Rose  51:45  
Well, I thought it would be fun to talk on your 100th episode about something we never talked about, which is of course content. And

Ian Truscott  51:54  
so I love me some content.

Robert Rose  51:56  
Yeah. But you know, most specifically, like, what content are we going to create? And there was, it's something that's been a little bit in the news of late with, you know, with Spotify, and, and Joe Rogan. And, and, and Neil Young, and the controversy over that. And, and, and certainly what we're starting to see in terms of, you know, the true extremism of content out there, I was watching a Social Media Group. And they were having discussion as a marketing Social Media Group. And in the discussion group, there was this discussion about content. And one of the posters in the social media group posted up this idea and said, what content should I be creating, that could be popular? And the inevitable came in, right? The response is, like, you know, go look at your audience, what questions can you answer for them understand their pain points and start writing about that, you know, getting off of writer's block, you know, all the usual sort of advice, and the poster then sort of updated, the person said, No, thanks. That's nice and everything, but I didn't mean, like any content, what I mean is, I want to be controversial, I want to be provocative, I want to get a level and have my stuff go viral. So what should I talk about, and the theory that this poster then sort of said was, the idea is I want to go viral with something and create something really provocative and controversial, so that people will look at who the heck I am, and find the other stuff that I've written about, and the right people will find me for, for marketing. So it's sort of like this idea of, you know, lighting off a flare gun, I guess, and sort of finding, you know, that there are that there's something good underneath the flare. And predictably, the tone of the conversation got into a fiery debate about the very flawed notion of that idea. That, if not the ethics of that idea. But it got me thinking. And what I started to think about is, is there ever a case where we would purposely put out a piece of content with the explicit goal of failing? Like, you know, we try to fail? Wow. And my answer that I came to was, yes, there is actually. And, you know, we all know, like, failing, can be productive, right? You know, obviously, you know, people talk about, there's entire books written on the idea of, you know, we learn more from our failure than we do our successes, etc, etc. And of course, that's true. But the concept there is, is that we're trying our level best to succeed and we inevitably will fail at some things. And so there are lessons learned, right? There are lessons learned from us trying to succeed and not succeeding. But I'm interested in the opposite, which is when we deliberately try to fail or at least do something that is considered a mistake, and then maybe get either learn something or are surprised by the results. And there's actually a book on this, which I found in my sort of searching around on this topic, it's a book called brilliant mistakes by Paul, author by the name of Paul Shoemaker. And he talks about how David Ogilvy the classic admin, used to do this all the time, he and his team, they would actually run ads that had either been rejected by the client and or they had rejected as a team, just to see, just, you know, just basically say, you know, if did we make a mistake, and a few of them, including, by the way, that great iconic Hathaway shirt ad, this is gonna show my age a little bit, you know, the one with eyepatch. Right, the, you know, there was this great campaign they ran with, you know, guys wearing Hathaway shirt, and they all have eye patches on and it's a iconic advertisement, and, you know, legendary and that was a mistake. Right? And so the the key is, is that there are times when we should take time, money, content, availability, whatever it is, and sort of just make a deliberate mistake. Now, I totally recognise that there are places, right, like, you know, learning how to skydive is not when you want to make a purposeful mistake, you

Robert Rose  56:16  
deliberately fail in that. But in marketing and content, there are definitely times and it reminds me, and I was reminded of when I was doing this research, of a few years ago, there was a VP of Marketing at this b2b tech company. And they had, you know, he came in New, and there was 90,000 people subscribed to the email newsletter, but whenever they would dutifully send it out every Friday, it was the engagement on it was almost negligible and 90,000 people and like, you know, 10 people, right, you know, we're out. And he was like, Well, you know, what's going on here? So what he did was, he said, let's do let's make a mistake. And so he sent out an email, he took a segment of the people, basically people that weren't responding to anything, and deliberately made a mistake, which was to send them an email saying, you know, so sorry to see you go, basically, we got your unsubscribe notice. And you're now subscribed. And if this is an error, let us know. And then click through to this, you know, little survey that you had taken, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, basically, the idea was, you're almost certainly going to lose in all of a bribe, because nobody's going to receive that. Right? You know, of course, it's gonna be that way. But it didn't turn out that way. As it turns out, yes, the majority did about 60% of them, never heard, never whatever. And they they unsubscribed all those people. But about 40% of the people actually did either take action on it, click through to, you know, what was going on on the landing page. And or another significant percentage actually filled out the survey to say, No, this is a mistake. I didn't unsubscribe from this thing. And about 10% of them actually answered the poll saying, Hey, if you would just send me something different. I would, you know, I would actually respond. So now, it's not always going to work out that way. And it's certainly I know, if you know, I mean, certainly a mistake is a mistake is a mistake. And sometimes and most of the time, probably, you're just going to confirm the fact that you make a mistake. But don't taking the time to actually deliberately do something, even if it is only just to sort of, you know, occasionally test our assumptions about something or a rule about something. There's there's that classic, never blogged on the weekend, right? never published. You know, make a mistake. Let's do it. Right. Yeah. And see what happens. Yeah. And so, you know, there's a famous quote, that I hear all the time. It's usually attributed to the IBM founder, Tom Watson, who said, you know, basically, if you want to increase your success rate, double your failure rate. And it seems to me like the only way I'm ever going to double my fail, you know, the only mathematical way am I going to double my failure rate is if occasionally I try and do it purposely. And so that's, you know, that's what's on my mind. And I think it's just a really interesting i Yeah,

Ian Truscott  59:15  
well, I think I mean, that's, I mean, that's a great topic. Because, I mean, what I was thinking while you were talking about that is defined mistake, what, in some cases, the mistake could just be going against your normal doctrine, and therefore could be considered a mistake. You're zigging against your own zag or zagging against your own Zig or whatever. Exactly. And trying and trying something new. So and then there's the case that I actually saw somebody present about this about email deliverability. And if you make a typo in the subject line, then people open the email, but of course, at that point, you've you've made it clear that you're an idiot, right? Right. People are opening but you know, they now know you can't spell so there's a win and loss or That kind of thing. But I think it's a really interesting idea. And then how did it go? How's it go back to that person that clearly wants to do a top 10 list of Hitler's greatest mistakes or something like that, or greatest achievements, or wherever it was, they were thinking they wanted to write something controversial. And, and they wanted

Robert Rose  1:00:17  
to, you know, they, I mean, what their their goal was to write something, you know, like, you know, something, and this is tree, I think this is a helpful safety tip. Right. So, yes, come back to the discussion about this as a flawed idea. Right, they were going to write Yeah, something like, you know, you know, you know, COVID-19 is, you know, whatever, right, are they you know, they write sweetly inflammatory, to try and get virality yet. Yeah. And, and hope that by getting notoriety and virality, that somebody would dig a bit deeper into who is this person and then find them? Interesting, right. You know, and it can, you know, to a certain degree, you can see that strategy at play with, you know, with more controversial media figures, right. You know, so when you think about a Joe Rogan, and yeah, you know, somebody like him, you know, he's very famous, right? And he's very famous for having now he's famous and, and gets his listeners, by being relatively controversial. And so that, you know, so people talk about him. And that is, I believe, that in brand, you know, in the world of brands, that's your, it's fraught with with a risk? Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, when he comes out and says something like, you know, what he's what he's recently come out with and said, is, is something to the effect of, you know, he said something to the effect of he was, he was, he was saying, Nobody should call them AI. Now, I didn't hear the details of this. So I'm just I can be Yeah, paraphrasing incorrectly. So just big asterisk here. Right. And the headline is on the article was, he said that black people shouldn't call themselves black, because unless they come from the deepest, darkest parts of Africa, which is just ridiculous at its face, but everybody goes, what you know, and, of course, click through and read through and you know, wants to know more about what they're saying, If only they hate listen to it. And so yeah, that's the kind of thing where brands are often encouraged to do something like that, because it'll get news or you know, all publicity is good publicity or something like that. And hopefully, people will be able to sift through that and get to the meat, you know, get to the stuff that you really want Yes to. But I think Boy, that's a these days. Wow, just, that's just a short fuse getting ready to blow up in your face?

Ian Truscott  1:02:47  
Well, I think the problem is, is at the moment, as marketers, we're being educated on a on a on a diet of the only way of getting organic reach in social is to take it, you know, is to, is to pick a fight almost right? Because we've seen success with our politics and all that. That's right. But the difference is somebody like Joe Rogan, who I don't know particularly well, and I realised that I, I was confusing him with somebody else for years, but And so and Joe Rogan, or, you know, you could even say, Donald Trump, or I think you used an example a couple of weeks ago on your show about how it's done. The difference with those people, and I think the person that perhaps was asking in the forum about how do I become viral and, and, and be controversial is, that's actually this is them being their authentic sells, but a little bit, and I hate to use the word authentic, because we're pretty much killing it as marketers, right. But that's who they are. Right? They're just amping it up to 11 to attract the attention of the audience. Whereas I think if you're a brand or a person building a personal brand, and you're not that like that, then to suddenly do that, you're just gonna look like the deck. Right? Nobody's gonna come let me win

Robert Rose  1:04:00  
the battle and lose the war, right?

Ian Truscott  1:04:02  
Yes, indeed. You know, look, I know that,

Robert Rose  1:04:06  
you know, what, you know, in the old days, you could do something like that, and it would go forgotten, right? Yep. Because media has a very short term memory when it came to those kinds of activities, so you could do something outrageous. And the news media might cover it, and your local news media might cover it, and the industry rag might cover it. And then it was out of the Zeitgeist and there was no permanent record of it, because there was no internet. And so you could, you know, you could largely move on. So you could, it was much easier to do it back in those days. Now. The Internet never forgets.

Ian Truscott  1:04:47  
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then you find yourself cancelled or whatever it is. And, yeah, and, I mean, we, we, we know, marketers in the b2b industry that their whole thing is to pick a fight with the biggest vendor in their category and, and that's the way they, they they build their reputation and their company's reputation, but that's who they are. Right? I think that how am I going? I just I was just cringing when you were describing the how do I write a controversial piece of content that's going to go viral? It's like, Oh, for Christ's sakes, what are you trying to actually achieve from a business perspective? Long term? That's right. That's right. Yeah. You

Robert Rose  1:05:26  
just got it. You've got to understand that before you do anything.

Ian Truscott  1:05:29  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a great thought. And when we do think of the controversial thing that we need to share, and all you need to share, and you're going to post it somewhere, Mr. Rose, where would you post that?

Robert Rose  1:05:42  
I'll post it to my newly hopefully fixed at you know, it's at content advisory dotnet. We've been working hard or little bees have been in the hive working and so hopefully, fixing some of the broken links there.

Ian Truscott  1:05:57  
It's fine. Isn't it amazing? You start tinkering with something and is really cobblers, kids shoes, isn't it? You start tinkering with something and then more total, it's like as a domino effect. I always disappear down rabbit holes of what it is I should be fixing. And it really isn't the thing I should be fixed. Yeah. And then, when people want to hear the most controversial viral views they can on the social media webs. And they saw on the interwebs and I spin the dial, where are they going to find you, Mr. Rose?

Robert Rose  1:06:26  
Well, they'll find those opinions on Joe Rogan calm. But if they want sort of the Bunnell soft middle of the road, opinions and advice on content marketing and content strategy, I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter.

Ian Truscott  1:06:41  
I just realised I should really call this show soft rock startup stuff, rock star. Nice. All right. Well, thank you very much for coming by on my 100th episode, and we'll see you again in the bar next week,

Robert Rose  1:06:59  
of course, and 101. Let's start this let's start this adventure all over again.

Ian Truscott  1:07:03  
Excellent. Thank you very much.

Ian Truscott  1:07:13  
Thank you, and as you may have gathered, I never know what he's gonna suggest either the cocktail or the sound effects I'm gonna have to find. So, that's a wrap on episode 100 of the Rockstar, cmo effing Marketing Podcast, who knew I'd make it this far. So a big thank you to you for dropping a dime into your podcasting jukebox, selecting our track and driving along. I've been your host Truscott thanks again to Jeff, Ken and Robert for sharing their insight please follow them say hello and check out all the links we discussed in the show notes which you can find on your favourite podcast app or at Rockstar cmo.fm. You can also find all our previous episodes. So does the world need another epic Marketing podcast? Let us know we are Rockstar cmo on LinkedIn or Twitter and please drop a rating or review in your favourite podcast or just keep listening. I'm glad you're here. Next week is episode 101. will complete the interview with Jeff I'm planning to chat with my first guest fractional cmo J. Robert slaughter. And as you heard from Robert will be in the Rockstar cmo virtual party. Until then, have a great week and I hope you'll again join us here next week on Rockstar cmo

Transcribed by https://otter.ai